How do non-orthodox jews justify not doing the same things that orthodox jews do?
I was speaking to some people who visited Israel, and they mentioned the orthodox jews are even more tied up in laws and rituals than the ‘regular’ jews. How do the non-orthodox jews justify not doing the same things as the orthodox jews if they are both meant to be obeying the Law?
To follow on from that, do the orthodox jews believe that the non-orthodox jews are going to hell because they don’t follow the same rules?
Some people are equating less religious to more religious Jews with different sects of Chrisianity. That’s not accurate. It’s different levels on the spectrum of observance but theology is pretty consistent. Christianity, the differences in theology-dogma ARE the point. Not so in Judaism & we remain one religion (this is important to understanding a lot of how Judaism works.)
The difference is Orthodox follow commandments as interpreted in Talmud, very literally. Conservative follow them but with belief that Talmud standards can be reinterpreted to some extent within a modern context. Reform follows that Torah is to be followed, & the Talmud has great wisdom, but isn’t literal in the following of it. Reconstructionist came from Conservative but tries to update more to add more spirituality. (I’m not giving the most crisp explanation here, & others may clarify better. Also each group’s main website states their theology (though I’ve found not always so very accurately either.))
Part of this is that Reform believes the Torah to be inspired by God, but not letter to letter given, while Orthodox believes it to be letter to letter given. HOWEVER, & a big however, these are not required beliefs of either group. You can follow & practice with either one without agreeing with what the over all view is. So in Judiasm, as with everything, the difference is in whether you follow the commandments literally or not… not the theology itself.
There is no hell in Judaism. The idea of "obeying the Law" is a Christian wording & concept. In Judiasm the commandments are given as a guide to how to live life. They are a joy & opportunity, something to connect you better to God & to your better self. Christianity introduces the idea of them as something restrictive & to be "obeyed" like a horror. More religious Jews do believe that very possibly in afterlife you will have a better time connecting to God if you as a Jew have been following the commandments. However, there is no strict afterlife belief (lots of varied ideas) & it’s this world, not what happens next, that’s the focus in Judaism. Less religious Jews believe less, so there is not concern about this aspect either. (There’s the answer to the question.) However, again for Orthodox Jews it is not a question of afterlife & reward… it is a reward to them in this life to follow these…a chance to be connected to holiness through more conscious actions.
=================
Melkah
is merely citing an Orthodox put down of Reform & not enlightening to the question at all. It’s an internal issue that shouldn’t be aired publically anyway & most Orthodox citing it don’t know Reform very well at all.
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December 22 2009 06:15 am | Uncategorized
Doctor Horrible on 22 Dec 2009 at 11:53 am #
I’ll leave your first question to Jews themselves.
As for your second, there is no hell in Judaism, so it’s a moot point.
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The Nomad Think Tank on 22 Dec 2009 at 12:03 pm #
for modern Jews, religion is nothing but their history. Many of them are atheist.
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Panama Joe on 22 Dec 2009 at 12:18 pm #
The same way that Roman Catholics don’t have the same rituals as say … Southern Baptists. They’re both Christians. How can the Baptist seek a divorce when the RCC doesn’t allow it?
That’s why there are so many religions and sects of those religions.
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Geoff C on 22 Dec 2009 at 1:04 pm #
It’s no different to Christians who don’t believe in evolution or homosexuality and regular christians, or suicide bomber muslims and regular muslims. They are all trying to live their lives according to an outdated, irelevent text written thousands of years ago when people had no idea how the world worked so they just made it up.
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Melting Media on 22 Dec 2009 at 1:16 pm #
Judaism has no hell. That’s a Christian concept. As for the rest, I’ll let the Jewish folks answer. If there’s one thing you should have noticed, they’re always open and honest on here.
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Melkha on 22 Dec 2009 at 1:53 pm #
The official ruling is that while there are Jews in the Reform, Conservative and Reconstructist, this movements are Not practicing Judaism.
There is no place of fiery torment in Judaism – hell is simply the grave. No one misses death we all die, we all go to hell/grave.
Judaism is based on 13 Principles:
These 13 Principles compiled by Maimonides outline Judaism’s tenets, which one must acknowledge as truths in order to be considered a Jew,
Principle I. To know the existence of the Creator
To believe in the existence of the Creator, and this Creator is perfect in all manner of existence. He is the cause of all existence. He causes them to exist and they exist only because of Him. And if you could contemplate a case, such that He was not to exist…then all things would cease to exist and there would remain nothing. And if you were to contemplate a case, such that all things would cease to exist aside from the Creator, His existence would not cease. And He would lose nothing; and oneness and kingship is His alone. Hashem of strength is His name because He is sufficient with His own existence, and sufficient [is] just Him alone, and needs no other. And the existences of the angels, and the celestial bodies, and all that is in them and that which is below them…all need Him for their existence. And this is the first pillar and is attested to by the verse, “I am Hashem your God.”
Principle II. The unity of God
Meaning to say to accept that this is the quintessential idea of Oneness. It is not like the oneness of a pair (i.e. pair of shoes – one group) and not one like a species. And not like man that has many individual (members) nor like a body that divides into many different parts until no end (every part being divisible). Rather, God is one and there is no other oneness like His. This is the second principle and is taught in what it says, “Hear Israel, Hashem is Our God, Hashem is one.”
Principle III. The denial of physicality in connection with God
This is to accept that this Oneness that we have mentioned above (Principle II) is not a body and has no strength in the body, and has no shape or image or relationship to a body or parts thereof. This is why the Sages of blessed memory said with regards to heaven there is no sitting, nor standing, no awakeness, nor tiredness. This is all to say that He does not partake of any physical actions or qualities. And if He were to be a body then He would be like any other body and would not be God. And all that is written in the holy books regarding descriptions of God, they are all anthropomorphic.“The Torah speaks using human terms to offer some understanding. This is the third pillar and is attested to by the verse, “For you saw no image” meaning that you did not see an image or any form when you stood at Sinai because as we have just said, He has no body, nor power of the body.
Principle IV. God’s Antiquity
This is that God existed prior to everything, and exists after everything. This is proved many times throughout scripture and is attested to by the verse, “Meuna Elokei kedem.”
Principle V. That God, blessed be He is worthy that we serve Him, to glorify Him, to make known His greatness, and to do His commands
But not to do this to those that are below Him in the creation. Not to the angels or to the stars or the planets or anything else, for they are all created things in nature and in their functioning, there is no choice or judgment except by God Himself. Also it is not fitting to serve them as intermediaries to God. Only to God should you incline your thoughts and your actions. This is the fifth principle and it warns against idolatry and most of the Torah speaks out against this.
Principle VI. Prophecy
And this is that it is known to man that this (prophet) is a type of man who are created beings of great stature and perfection of the character traits. Who have tremendous knowledge until a different intelligence attaches to them when the intelligence of the person clings to the intelligence of God and it rests upon him. And these are the prophets; and this is prophecy; and the idea of it. The explanation of it is very long and the intention is not to bring a sign for every fundamental and to explain it all, encompassing of all knowledge (i.e. God’s knowledge) but it is mentioned to us in a story form and all of the Torah attests to this.
Principle VII. The prophetic capacity of Moses our Teacher, peace be upon him
And this is that we accept that he was the father of all prophets that were before him and that will be after him. He was on a qualitatively different level than any other, and he is chosen from all other people before and after him of any that have any knowledge of God; for his was the greatest. And he, peace be upon him, rose to the levels of the angels. He was granted all areas of knowledge and prophecy and his physical attributes did not diminish. His knowledge was different and it is through this difference that it is
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Judaism
Asst Prof on 22 Dec 2009 at 1:58 pm #
I have always looked at the different Jewish sects as being similar to different Christian denominations; maybe it’s an over-simplification, since I am not very familiar with differences between Protestant, Lutheran, etc.
It appears that it is a differentiation in what a person feels has influence over his life. The more a person believes his life is governed by God, the more observant (orthodox) he will be. The more one tries to assimilate himself into everyday modern life, the less orthodox he become Even though there are all types of modifications that are available, I think that it is extremely difficult to be an traditionally orthodox Jew in today’s society. I can’t imagine having no TV, no secular magazines or newspapers, or spending time at 3 or 4 religious services a day; being a traditionally orthodox (not neo-orthodox) Jew is a way of life. That’s why, even though there are 3 main Jewish sects, there are many, many different ways of observing Judaism.
I was raised a Conservative Jew, so along with many others, religion is more of a continuity of tradition than any kind of adherence to Faith.
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Cher was here JPA on 22 Dec 2009 at 2:19 pm #
Some people are equating less religious to more religious Jews with different sects of Chrisianity. That’s not accurate. It’s different levels on the spectrum of observance but theology is pretty consistent. Christianity, the differences in theology-dogma ARE the point. Not so in Judaism & we remain one religion (this is important to understanding a lot of how Judaism works.)
The difference is Orthodox follow commandments as interpreted in Talmud, very literally. Conservative follow them but with belief that Talmud standards can be reinterpreted to some extent within a modern context. Reform follows that Torah is to be followed, & the Talmud has great wisdom, but isn’t literal in the following of it. Reconstructionist came from Conservative but tries to update more to add more spirituality. (I’m not giving the most crisp explanation here, & others may clarify better. Also each group’s main website states their theology (though I’ve found not always so very accurately either.))
Part of this is that Reform believes the Torah to be inspired by God, but not letter to letter given, while Orthodox believes it to be letter to letter given. HOWEVER, & a big however, these are not required beliefs of either group. You can follow & practice with either one without agreeing with what the over all view is. So in Judiasm, as with everything, the difference is in whether you follow the commandments literally or not… not the theology itself.
There is no hell in Judaism. The idea of "obeying the Law" is a Christian wording & concept. In Judiasm the commandments are given as a guide to how to live life. They are a joy & opportunity, something to connect you better to God & to your better self. Christianity introduces the idea of them as something restrictive & to be "obeyed" like a horror. More religious Jews do believe that very possibly in afterlife you will have a better time connecting to God if you as a Jew have been following the commandments. However, there is no strict afterlife belief (lots of varied ideas) & it’s this world, not what happens next, that’s the focus in Judaism. Less religious Jews believe less, so there is not concern about this aspect either. (There’s the answer to the question.) However, again for Orthodox Jews it is not a question of afterlife & reward… it is a reward to them in this life to follow these…a chance to be connected to holiness through more conscious actions.
=================
Melkah
is merely citing an Orthodox put down of Reform & not enlightening to the question at all. It’s an internal issue that shouldn’t be aired publically anyway & most Orthodox citing it don’t know Reform very well at all.
References :