Does the Catholic practice of praying to saints come from apocryphal books, or from church tradition?
This isn’t a catholic vs. protestant debate, I’m just interested in *where* the justification for praying to saints is in the Catholic faith. It’s either a. in the apocrypha, or b. in the catechisms, or c. it’s not written down anywhere, it’s just a tradition.
Thanks!
Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination – activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). The one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in Heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in Heaven has any greater access to God’s throne that we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
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August 15 2009 11:48 am | Catholic
HTacianas on 15 Aug 2009 at 5:33 pm #
Prayers to saints is not only a Catholic tradition. It is a Tradition of all Christians and has been since the days of the catacombs.
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Christians 4 Jews on 15 Aug 2009 at 5:46 pm #
Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination – activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). The one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in Heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in Heaven has any greater access to God’s throne that we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
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Ask on 15 Aug 2009 at 6:09 pm #
I think it’s part of their traditions.
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Val on 15 Aug 2009 at 6:17 pm #
It comes from its dirty little secret history. Deliberately kept foggy so most people don’t make too many enquirers or dig too deep. Christianity is Mithra Christos wearing a new name. Christianity is a totally fake religion. Plagiarized and mangled into the oxymoron that is Christianity. There is a very good reason why the two parts are at odds with each other.
Practicing Shaman… quantum physics rocks.
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Farsight on 15 Aug 2009 at 6:57 pm #
Neither. It comes from the bible. Psalms 29:1-2 is a prayer to angels. Thus we see some important things – that prayer (but not worship) to someone other than God is ok and that those in heaven CAN hear us.
Thus, prayer to the saints is perfectly ok, as they are in heaven as well. Revelation 8:3-4 also depicts an angel taking the prayers of those on earth and presenting them to God.
Does scripture command us to pray to anyone other than God? No. And so it’s not needed, but that does not also mean it is condemned.
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PaulCyp on 15 Aug 2009 at 7:11 pm #
It comes partially from Apostolic Tradition, that is, the teaching of Christ passed on by the Apostles in ways other than written – and partially from the Bible. In any case, it is really not a major matter. It is simply Christians asking other Christians to pray for them. All Christians do this. Why should the fact that a Christian is living in heaven other than on earth make any difference? Do we forget how to pray when we enter Heaven? Do we lose our love and concern for our brethren on Earth when we enter Heaven? Some object to the practice of asking "the dead" to pray for us. But nowhere in the Bible are deceased Christians referred to as "dead". That would contradict Christ Himself, who told us "those who follow Me will never die". This is further revealed in Rev 5:8, which describes those before the throne of God presenting our prayers to Him. In any case, the bottom line is the promises Christ made to the one Church He founded, the Catholic Church … "whatsoever you bind upon earth is bound in heaven" … "the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth" … "he who hears you hears Me". These promises guarantee the truth of every teaching of the Catholic Church … but only if you actually believe the words of Christ as recorded in the Holy Bible.
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propheterica on 15 Aug 2009 at 7:54 pm #
The one who hears Me, hears You. Those who receive You, receive Me. God is present in the council of the elect, and especially with those to whom The Word of God came.
We will not all rest, some will be changed as Moses and Elijah and Enoch. For it is written regarding the 24 elders and regarding the 144,000 fulfillment of the feast of the FirstFruits of God chosen from among all peoples in fulfillment of the Prophecy of Isaiah and the fulfillment of the Martyrdom completion of the fifth seal. There are those that are found worthy to be counted as Judges in The Millennium and they will Reign as Priests in Jerusalem.
Anyone who does not take the mark of the number of the name of the false prophet will be eligible to be counted among the glass sea decision as written following the sixth seal for the rest will be raptured after 44 1/2 months or 1335 days.
However, to speak to someone in the spiritual can be divided upon, of course, not as in the same manner as prayer to God or Jesus; necessarily. The Father in Me, I in The Father. I in You, You in Me. That the fulfillment of The Word: that they may be one as We are One and that the love that You Love Me may be in them that they may always have The Counselor to be With them forever, even unto the end of this dark and wicked generation and in The Paradise of God.
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cristoiglesia on 15 Aug 2009 at 8:27 pm #
First of all it is disingenuous to state that the practice of praying for each other has no biblical foundation, we are instructed in Scripture to have a prayer life for others as it is part of God’s commandment to love one another.
(2Co 5:8 DRB) But we are confident and have a good will to be absent rather from the body and to be present with the Lord.
The Catholic Church does not teach that it is absolutely necessary for one to ask for the intercession of saints for salvation. The Church does teach that prayer to God is necessary for salvation for all believers. For a Catholic it would be wrong to ignore the liturgical worship offered to God at feast days for the saints and the prayers asking for their intercession.
The Communion of Saints is a dogma of the ancient Church and is recorded in the apostles Creed. It simply states that the faithful because of their relationship with Christ are alive even after the death of their flesh and worship with us. To us the Church is made up of the Church militant who represents all those believers living out their hope in the flesh.
(Phi 2:12 DRB) Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
(Phi 2:13 DRB) For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.
It consists of the Church Suffering who are those who are temporarily in need of further purgation from sin so that they may enjoy the presence of God.
(2Ma 12:46 DRB) It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
Lastly, the Communion of the Saints consists of those who have won the race:
(Phi 3:14 DRB) I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus.
Their immortal souls are in heaven in God’s presence:
(Rev 5:8 DRB) And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
The universal stream connecting all of God’s creation is His love, which we take on in our baptism into our journey towards sanctification. This is not an emotional but a desire placed in us by the Spirit of God that endures as a desire for those other than ourselves and this love extends even to our enemies. This is truly a love that comes only from God and is a foreign concept and nonsense to those who have not received God’s salvific grace. This desire within our souls does not end with the death of our flesh but continues into eternity where the saints through their intercession in prayer encourage us in our race and assist us to endure unto our union with God.
I think that some people of faith, who do not understand the Communion of Saints, somehow believe that asking saints to pray for us is detracting from our love or our trust in God. In truth it is impossible, if we truly love as God commands and has given us the grace to understand, not to pray to those whom we love and in turn we expect them to return that same love to us by praying for us and presenting our prayers to God.
In Christ
Fr. Joseph
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http://fiatvolvntastua.blogspot.com/
imacatholic2 on 15 Aug 2009 at 8:44 pm #
Mostly Holy Tradition but from the Bible as well.
Jesus is our one and only mediator. Intercession is different.
"Teach us how to pray," the disciples said to Jesus. (Luke 11, 1)
Jesus answered by teaching them the prayer we call the Our Father or The Lord’s Prayer.
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give US this day OUR daily bread.
Forgive US OUR trespasses,
as WE forgive those who trespass against US.
And lead US not into temptation,
but deliver US from evil.
The entire second part of the Lord’s prayer is intercessory prayer where we pray for ourselves and others (us, we, and our).
Christians praying for each other and the world is intercessory prayer and is accepted and practiced by all Christan denominations (that I know about).
Before Jesus Christ died for our sins and opened the gates of heaven there were no saints in heaven. Therefore there are no Old Testament writings that would mention them.
Very few of the new Christians died before most of the New Testament was written. Therefore there is little in the Bible about asking saints to pray for us.
However the last book of the Bible does talk about the saints in heaven praying.
Revelation 5:8: Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
Revelation 8:3-4: He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.
The Holy Spirit guided the early Church in many things not explained in the Bible including how does the Body of Christ (believers) living on Earth relate to the Body of Christ (saints) living in heaven. We are still one Body.
Catholics share the belief in the Communion of Saints with many other Christians, including the Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Episcopal, and Methodist Churches.
The Communion of Saints is the belief where all saints are intimately related in the Body of Christ, a family. When you die and go to heaven, you do not leave this family.
Everyone in heaven or on their way to heaven are saints, you, me, my deceased grandmother, Mary the mother of Jesus, Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II.
As part of this family, you may ask your family and friends living here on earth to pray for you. Or, you may also ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, Saint Andrew, or your deceased grandmother living in heaven to pray for you.
Prayer to saints in heaven is simple communication, not worship.
Asking others to pray for you whether your loved ones on Earth or your loved ones in heaven is always optional.
For more information, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, section 946 and following: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p5.shtml#946
With love in Christ.
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answer4you on 15 Aug 2009 at 9:19 pm #
Protestants use prayer as an argument against the Catholic Church and they like to reference… 1 Timothy 2:5… because it states —
"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
Thus their argument is… "Hey Catholics… isn’t this clear enough?" — Sure, to a person who can be easily swayed… this would be good enough to start their Anti-Catholic rantings…
However, someone with a greater deal of intelligence would realize that there is a second side to this coin, the side which the Protestants tend to skip all together… (to make their point)… Now, if we read more than just one verse, we would see the following…
(Notice how if you read more than one verse, then it is clear that the Protestants are taking scripture out of context to attempt proving a point. Truth is revealed if you don’t manipulate scripture).
1 Timothy 2:1-5 says…
"1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
We also see in Revelations, proof of Prayer to and of Saints… (Rev 8:3-4)
"3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with THE PRAYERS OF ALL SAINTS upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand."
Then we see more in Revelations… (Rev 5:8)
"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the PRAYERS OF SAINTS"
Then yet more in the book of James… (James 5:16)
"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” Those in heaven are perfectly righteous, and their prayers are efficacious. How can one ignore them?"
GOD BLESS… PRAYERS TO AND BY SAINTS CAN BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE…
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I’m CATHOLIC
Daver on 15 Aug 2009 at 9:58 pm #
The practice of Intercessory Prayer to the Saints comes from BOTH Sacred Scripture and Sacred Oral Tradition.
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